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This may get me in an assload of trouble but I think it needs to be said. Go figure out what you need to learn, and learn it. Jason, I got an English degree and I did OK but it took me approximately 10 years to get where I wanted to be professionally.

It should have taken me 18 months, maximum. One of my biggest professional regrets is that I did not have access to the right learning resources at the right time. Undergraduate years would have been ideal, but a few years after would have worked well too.

This feeling is one of the things that informed the creation of CodeLesson. I think for certain careers a college degree and the process by which you obtain it is necessary. After 4 or 5 years of us being on our respective paths, I was much further ahead of them in terms of understanding the things that will help you engineer software effectively. Get this — the first time in my career that I ended up really needing to understand more-than-just-simple math was about 6 months ago when I was doing some math-heavy HTML 5 Canvas JavaScript programming.

The areas of knowledge that have been far more valuable to me as a developer than math, IMO, have been trading reddit rocket league best car designs for logic and critical thinking skillscommunication thorough discussions about detailssociology learning how to manage your co-workers and bosses without them knowing it and english yep, ENGLISH!

Higher math really has nothing to do with pointer arithmetic, not even sure what you were trying to say there. But stating that only systems programmers need a good basis in algorithms is so off the mark it really undermines the other points you make.

You can still grind a modern computer to a halt by organizing your data naively or searching it using the wrong algorithms. Without a background in algorithms and data structures you can fail to even see what is possible. But I am saying you can teach the basics and the theory alongside the applied stuff. Your journalism degree gets you a job at a newpaper. Your law degree trading reddit rocket league best car designs you a job at a law firm.

Your HR degree gets you a job in HR etc. I see the trend of people with CS degrees becoming like people with English degrees — where the most successful people you meet with those degrees are the professors who have no real use except creating more professors. My experience as a CS major was quite different, but it probably depends on the school.

Some courses did end up being less useful, Formal Model of the Java VM or Computer Architecture for examplebut it certainly broadened my view of the craft. Since I had no idea what I wanted to do back then, I can certainly appreciate the opportunity to be introduced to the entire spectrum instead of just a small subset. Your experience sounds ideal. I think a lot of people are missing the nuance of my argument they think I want to convert top-tier CS departments into the Truckmaster School of Coding, which is not what I wrote.

I go to an engineering school that has programs that are considered to be top in the world. However, the computer science program still ends up with the highest rate of students with a job after graduation and the highest average starting salary! Based on friends and other classmates that I keep in touch with, most students feel well-prepared when they start work and employers definitely look to recruit.

We have a mixture of both classes that are heavy in theory and some that are more practical — which might help. I feel like my school is similar to your school, only not quite as highly rated. Sadly the theory hardly corresponds to reality on those topics, and while I was supposed to be writing proofs of the pumping lemma and drawing finite-state machines, I instead learned Bison and wrote my own language.

Even a non-systems programmer needs to know how to make decisions and the consequences of those decisions: N00bs who lack CS knowledge but can spit out code, can make stupid decisions that are easy to code like writing to disk or making network calls in a loop, using inefficient or inappropriate algorithms. If students graduating from colleges in the US have poor engineering skills, these are remediable by making software engineering courses mandatory and having more of them.

But not at the cost of neglecting the fundamentals. Engineering skills can always be learned on the job, given the right foundation. None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with the ivory-tower teachines that jeffrey is saying are not needed. I definitely agree with Jayraj. In Spain the bachelor lasts 5 years, so we have more time to improve practical skills. For example, we can study foundations of AI, and design a game that use these algorithms.

On the other hand, I agree that programming is not exclusive to CS graduates. Software developers tend to be trading reddit rocket league best car designs addicts who think their job is to write code. Their job is to solve problems. A five-year program with a year or two of practical instruction sounds like it would be terrific.

My problem with your post is that it seems to advocate University CS programs become focused on teaching trading reddit rocket league best car designs skills that you yourself said have a shelf life of about 5 years.

Christopher, I never said that. The point is that they can teach practical alongside the theoretical. Python in year 1, Theory of Computation in year 3. Biology departments also teach things that were discovered in the last decade. However, if you want to skip the theoretical altogether and get on to the job market quickly with some practical skills, you ought to shun any institution that needs four years to get that understanding across.

Python was just an example but it came out in and my sense is that its rate of adoption is accelerating. An undergrad who learns it today can certainly get a job with it in years. A big part of the problem is that the pace of innovation in the profession has accelerated since the 90s and professional education has not kept pace. If your point is that programmers should not get their education at a university, then for some of them I could agree with you.

We definitely need more of a skills-based trade school side to software development, and we need more of a cross-disciplinary training approach for people whose core skills are in something besides programming, but do some cobbling together of libraries.

I will probably be dead in 40 years time. Virtually every other technical discipline seems to be able to do that. The practical stuff should at least be current. Great Lakes Water Institute: Really it is not that hard to self-teach. By and large we get a hash table. Our arrays and even objects are often implemented in terms of hash tables.

Want to work in gaming? Better work on your lin alg. Is it impossible for non-university folks to pick up and learn those things? Obviously; I never said there was no place for those skills. But the ratio of developers to game developers is huge. I agree that there are non-obvious concepts that a good programmer needs to be exposed to in order to be effective.

This is especially true when it comes to security. It is the place of Universities to be Universities — communities of teachers and scholars. We already know that people will have multiple careers, let alone jobs in their lifetimes now.

I attended a college which is over years old at a university over years old. Computers have only been around a fraction of that time. Universities work best when people study what they love, learn how to learn, learn basic trading reddit rocket league best car designs like communication, analytic thought and about the trading reddit rocket league best car designs.

If you want people to get the most out of University, grow them up to be curious and have a nurturing school environment. They will go on to University or not, and they will go on after that to whatever, giving us Nobel Prizes, PayPal and hotornot. Communication is the 1 skill for all software development which sees the light of day.

You can learn Pascal and Trading reddit rocket league best car designs in the same year; I certainly did. But Universities are there for the sake of the knowledge, not the sake of the marketplace. If people want to learn software development, why would they take a Computer Science major course? Is is not clear what the curriculum is about? IIRC, computer science is the science of computation — a lot of discrete mathematics, complexity, numerical methods, and algorithms. Eventually getting into things like parallelism, compiler design etc.

If other offerings can compete, let them compete. You seem to be implying trading reddit rocket league best car designs there is not a level playing field within the University for more courses to come in because of a self-preservationist attitude in the institution. You had me until the math part. A good software designer need to not only know that sha works, she needs to know WHY it works. Otherwise we have what keeps me busy: Why would I need trading reddit rocket league best car designs know how it works?

There are people who specialize in that stuff. Besides, SHA is a pretty awesome algorithm! That would be more analogous to the computer scientist needing to know how the hardware works down to the register level. At any rate, I think it would be more appropriate to ask if a psychiatrist at least understands the core theories of mind and cognition, in order to better understand the mechanisms that underlay their treatments.

Then he packaged it as a library so that mortals could use it. The majority of the security problems we face are from people who slap together a bunch of functions from trading reddit rocket league best car designs. Understanding SHA or hashing algorithms, their weaknesses and purpose is essential to having real security.

Without the understanding that comes from the trading reddit rocket league best car designs, you will implement significant security holes. Does that mean you have to understand SHA to use it? But you need to understand the theory.

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